Update: Swimming Australia denies China Daily report.
In apparently one of the first conclusions as Swimming Australia tries to rebound from a disappointing Olympic performance, the governing body for aquatics Down Under has banned Denis Cotterell from training foreign athletes, World Record holder Sun Yang told the English-language China Daily.
Cotterell is one of the most heralded distance coaches in history, and began work with Yang in 2010. Since then, Yang has gone on to win a World Championship, China’s first two ever men’s swimming Olympic gold medals, and destroy the World Record in the 1500 free. That’s a mark that previously belonged to another Cotterell prodigy: Grant Hackett. Yang did it with an efficiency of stroke that is unparalleled in the sport, and one that would seem to obviously have been influenced heavily by Cotterell.
Thus far, only the Chinese perspective on the story has been told, and one would imagine that the conversation between Swimming Australia and Cotterell was more intricate, complex, and nuanced than just an outright ban on coaching foreign athletes. No response from Swimming Australia was immediately received on the matter, though it is after business hours there.
This “ban” likely had some caveat about the ability to be a part of Australia’s National program while coaching international athletes, for example, or to receive Swimming Australia subsidies.
In the sense of an outright ban, it would likely result in Australia losing the services of one of their best coaches at a time when their men’s distance group is struggling mightily. That’s because the numbers that have been thrown out for how much China is paying Cotterell to coach Yang are staggering. China Daily reports on rumors that he received a $500,000 bonus for the World Record, and Cotterell has previously said that he makes four-times more per month for training Chinese swimmers than he does with his home club.
It will be interesting to see how this all plays out, but with that level of success and money on the line, I would predict that Yang and Cotterell will find a way to be together through the next Olympics.
I have a hard time believing Chinese swimmers can enroll and train in NCAA schools. They simply don’t have the required English proficiency. And worse than, they don’t have basic serviceable English. Case in point: Sun Yang jumped into the pool in the 1500m free final in London when the starter said “please stand back”. Maybe he was too nervous, or maybe he just didn’t understand what was said. He was the only one that jumped, so maybe he was the only one who didn’t understand it. Academic work is even harder for them. I don’t see it happening.
BTW, which foreign swimmers trained in US won medals in London?
Um, the 2012 NCAA women’s platform diving champion, Chen Ni came up through the Chinese sporting machine and, after getting a taste of America at an international juniors competition, made her way to IUPUI a few years later despite limited English proficiency at he time. She’s now working her way to a master’s degree here and has also gained US citizenship.
Chinese diving is incredibly deep and competitive. Many talented divers can’t make the roster of national team. So they go elsewhere. So is women’s weightlifting. One Chinese girl won gold for Kazakstan in London:-) But swimming is a totally different story. Elite swimmers are a rare commodity and heavily pampered. Reward for an Olympic swimming gold is way above those from other “minor sports”. I doubt world-class Chinese swimmers would choose that route.
Again I am right. Nowhere did I criticize Denis , nor did I believe Swimming Australia has prevented his coaching.
The fact is Denis coaches 2 swimmers on the national team which imo did not warrant a spot for him on staff. He admitted he was hoping to sneak over to coach Sun during London.
The cameras were on him during & after Sun’s race & most of the team looked happy. But it is not up to them . It is not unnoticed that Denis’s 2 Australian swimmers performed mediocre -as have all his swimmers since Pan Pacs 2010.
I am a long term distance fan & am not ignorant of the challenges but I struggle with his… Read more »
Just an update for all who haven’t looked at the top – Swimming Australia is denying any such comments.
http://swimswam.com/2012/09/swimming-australia-the-story-is-incorrect/
I understand the move by Swimming Australia, but I think this will just harm themselves in the end. At the end of the day they can’t simply treat Denis as a tool to churn out swimmers – he is a great coach yes but he also needs to survive financially. Without being attached to university departments and relying on Swimming Australia funding equals ridiculously low pay for someone of his calibre, and the Chinese are simply doing what they do best: spotting a market and buying in.
By turning its back on Denis and possibly others over this issue is just going to cause a lot of bad feeling, which Swimming Australia can’t really afford right now, what with the… Read more »
There is already an America (Chris Martin) working as a coach for the Shanghai Provincial Team. I met him on one of my trips there. There is a British National Team. Each province is responsible for fielding their best team and they each go about it in the way they see fit. The more success you have, the more $$ you get from Beijing. Zhejiang Province is where the best swimmers are coming out China right now.
A few years ago Dennis’s club Miami won the Australian junior club trophy . Since Denis has concentrated on Chinese swimmers there have been no new juniors at all.
The concept of 40+ Chinese swimmers turning up at once has got to affect Cotterilll’s time with his own swimmers. Sure they don’t excite him but the resulting injuries & sickness -including the unforgiveable anaemia- have ended promising careers.
The big problem for me & maybe for other members of the public was Cotterill being on the Australian Olympic Staff whilst coaching Sun openly in london.
There is nothing to stop Denis moving overseas to coach. I know he is a Europhile so I don’t see USA .
Denis… Read more »
@JG, regarding your previous comment, I think Tim was just answering/commenting a question I had about the NCAA policy toward international athletes as well as athletic scholarships.
I think there is nothing wrong for any athlete from any country to train with any coach from any country. My only (slight) hesitance comes when/if athletes are give athletic scholarships by schools partially funded by US tax dollars–however, this may not be a concern if athletic departments are required to self-sufficient, as Braden mentioned. (Please don’t lash out at this comment…not meant to incite anger from either side…)
While the coach talent certainly plays a role in providing the best training, it is still up to the individual athlete to put in… Read more »
You have a problem with him Coaching Sun while being on the Australian Staff? Do you have a problem with Salo being on USA Staff and openly coaching a bunch of foreign athletes? Or Greg Troy? Or Teri McKeever? Or Dave Marsh?
If we didn’t allow our USA Olympic Staff coaching foreigners in the Olympics, we would have sent just Eddie Reese and Todd Schmitz over there to handle things.
Yes I did have a problem watching Salo openly cheer for Ous while USA athletes were in the same heat. Quietly cheering to oneself is one thing, openly cheering, waving arms, whistling while on USA staff in unprofessional.
I’m sure I’m walking into a trap, but how do you know this? You in London and see Salo NOT cheer for the US milers. I’ll tell right now, if some I had been coaching for a few years was swimming in the OLYMPIC FINAL, regardless of country of origin, I’d have hard time keeping my mouth shut.
Yes I was. I thought it was unprofessional while on US staff. Catherine could cheer all she wanted to.
On the Australian Olympic staff during the Games -yes.
Back home within his arrangement with the local council & ratepayers -no.
An athlete has the right to choose where they want to train. USA athletes have been know to train outside the USA boundaries,
Wu Peng is sort of the model for China going forward. He was lucky, because he spoke enough English to get past the NCAA TOFEL requirements. Most Chinese cannot. Coach Zhuzhi gen (who is Sun Yang’s chinese coach and the most prominent Chinese coach) is actually traveling to Michigan to spend some time with Mike Bottom in the next month or so. Wu Peng comes out of the ChenJinglin School in Hangzhou where Sun Yang and Ye Shiwen came from. He was coached by Coach Bia there (who is an absolute trip – a really fun guy). The real obstacle has more to do with access and cultural ignorance. Once overcome, it will open the floodgates (cash and athletes). I… Read more »
Out of curiosity…
Are international swimmers allowed to get NCAA athletic scholarships? If so, is there a limit to how many per team? I’m just wondering since funding for state schools comes from taxes paid at the federal and state level. Are these terms different depending on whether the school is public or private?
anonymous2 – there are no formal rules on this that I’m aware of, though I’d imagine some schools have unspoken (or spoken) policies on the subject.
Many athletics departments are also required to be wholly self-sufficient, receiving none of the tax money to which you refer. Certainly not all, but many.
IIRC, the University of Florida athletic department is not only required to be self-funding, but is also profitable enough that they’re expected to kick $5-$8 million back into the UF general fund in a typical year. Many of the other highly profitable football schools in the SEC/Pac 10/Big Whatever probably operate under similar rules.
Yes, there are rules….. they differ at every level…… NJCAA for instance allows 3 foreign athletes PER SIDE. Doesn’t matter if they are on scholarship or not. Each level probably has limits for each.
The bigger issue is access. There are minimum TOFEL scores. In general, foreign swimmers have to prove they can be successful in the classroom in America by having a command of the English. Traditionally, athletes in China are pretty segregated and have difficulty passing those standards due to poor English.
Tim -you are putting out false equivalencies. Chinese swimmers in Australia are not attending schools or colleges.
We do have some 150,000 Chinese students here & everyone I met speaks good English & is pretty smart to boot. They are welcome.
If they were to combine swimming & study like we do -their results would be interesting .
The NCAA does not have limitations for any of the divisions on the number of international student athletes who can participate on a team, nor a limit on scholarships for international student athletes beyond the limit each division has for scholarships for the entire team (international or not).
Steve, I stand corrected on NCAA. I’m familiar with NJCAA and there are limit of non-USA athletes competing on a team. Basically, it’s 3 a side. Also, they cannot be older then 22 years old.
JG. I was simply answering a question about NCAA. I wasn’t talking about anything in Australia of making comments about that system.
I actually just got back from China visiting some of their best swimming facilities. They are fat with $$, and willing to pay for what they lack. I have a pretty interesting take on all this as I have see it from the inside (of China). The Chinese are already moving beyond Australia for swimming advice. The Australia’s were just the first to start working with them when China opened it’s door.
It’s just a matter of time before the Chinese are working through the US system. They are already started. Culturally, there are some hurdles to overcome. but they will. Their biggest problem is that because they were “closed” for so long, many of their sheltered swimmers a blocked access to training here in the US because they do not speak English. Sun Yang speaks some, and Ye Shiwen is working on hers (I know, because I have met them both 🙂 ).
If your interested in knowing more feel free to email me: [email protected]
Wu Peng has spoken very positively about his time with Club Wolverine, saying that, while it was hard outside the pool at first because he had to figure out how to find his own apartment and deal with transportation, grocery shopping, etc. in a foreign country, he’s been in a great training group in Ann Arbor that has kept him in the sport at a high level when he might have otherwise retired, and encouraged other Chinese swimmers to be open to the idea of training in the US once they got a bit older.
Yeah, Wu Peng is the model. Other Chinese swimmers will follow. Zhuzhi gen, who is Sun Yang’s coach in China (Zhejiang Provincial Team) is actually going to visit Mike Bottom in Michigan in the next month or so. They are opening up. Wu Peng is actually from the ChenJinglin School in Hangzhou. That was one of the club’s I visited when I was there. Coach Bai (who is a swimming legend in China) coaches there, along with Yang Yu (2004-2008 Silver Medalist). Coach Bai is a trip. A real fun guy.
Bottom line, it’s just a matter of time. Like I said, the biggest barriers between US involvement in training Chinese swimmers is access. That’s changing pretty quickly. I have… Read more »